Mysticism is a spectrum

One of the reasons why I think the attitudes towards mysticism in Heathenry tend towards the extremes of flat-out skepticism to “I can do any weird thing I want no matter how incompatible with theology, thew, or ethics, because THE GODS TOLD ME”, is because there is a lot of confusion as to what mysticism actually means and is.

When most people think of mysticism, they usually assume someone who is “on” 24/7, whose life is permeated by the unseen.  In Heathenry, we do not have too many examples of full-time, 24/7-365 mystics in the way that Christianity and Hinduism has many such accounts.  The closest thing we have in our written history is the individual seiðfolk, spae-wives, and völven who did seership and magic for the people, often traveling.  This is one role mysticism can take, but is in very small proportion to the amount of modern Heathens reporting mystical experiences of some kind.

The fact is, the concept that you are either “on” all the time and thus compelled to use the abilities in full-time service, or you are completely “mundane”, is erroneous.  Mysticism is not either/or.  It is, rather, a spectrum.

Most of the people I know who became Heathen in the last year to 20 years report being pulled by one of the Gods, rather than a desire to explore culture or ancestry.  While the latter may motivate some, it tends to not be the majority.  This makes sense considering America is not Europe, most of us who are American are raised in American culture/s, not European, and most current Heathens are not born and raised Heathen – at some point there has to be a conversion/acculturation process.

Most of the people I know who report being pulled by one of the Gods also report occasional Deity communication and sometimes that of wights and/or ancestors.  Yet, most of them are not seiðfolk, or performing rune magic or folk charms, and are not reporting great disturbances in their lives because of continual “woo”.  Does that mean they are completely “mundane” and not at all mystical?  Hel no.

Mysticism is a spectrum.  To make it simple, I’m going to use a 6-point scale.  Obviously, your mileage and perception can and will vary.

  1. On the far end, at number one, we have what has been termed “cementheads”.  (I did not invent the term and I apologize if it comes off as insulting.)  It is generally rare to find 100% mundane people interested in religion at all, so while there are some within Heathenry who would self-identify as such, I think they belong to the next category up.
  2. At number two, there are folks who generally don’t get visited by Gods or other spirits, but nonetheless practice religious observances in sincerity and receive the blessings.  They may feel occasionally prodded that a God or other being would like a specific offering, and they may find these offerings well-received with a feeling of rightness or an omen given.  While the “woo” would be occasional and nothing life-shaking, nonetheless, they are still able to enjoy what that God stands for and what the wights/ancestors give and do, and Their spheres of influence in the world.  If they pray, they may have their prayers answered, and the occasional “Divine intervention”.
  3. At number three, there are folks who may occasionally – as in, one, two, or a handful of instances through an entire lifespan – be visited by Gods or other spirits, with a message or a strong feeling of guidance to do something, or evidence of a major intervention.  They may have had a conversation or a few conversations with beings.  They also appreciate what the God stands for and the presence of the wights and ancesotrs, Their spheres of influence in the world, and will receive the blessings when performing ritual, and outside of ritual.  I am going to venture that most Heathens I have encountered would fall into 3-3.5.
  4. At number four, there are folks who have developed a close relationship with one or more Deities, and sometimes (but not always) some wights and/or ancestors.  They have frequent but not constant conversations with beings whether in dreams or while awake or both, and receive some guidance and inspiration from Them which affects changes in the mundane world.  There may at this stage be some desire to perform techniques like seiðr or spae, or work with runes, etc, but it will generally not be an all-the-time thing.
  5. At number five, you typically see someone who is sworn to one Deity and as a representative of this Deity, will be engaged in a practice like seiðr, folk magic, runes, magico-medical things like herbalism or energy work, or honing priestcraft, done on a fairly frequent and consistent basis.  There is a constant or near-constant sense of the presence of that Deity, and often wights and/or ancestors, the veil between worlds being thinner for this individual than some others.  There may be frequent visitation and communion whether in dreams or while awake or both (usually both), and because of this it becomes harder to go about “regular” business, so the “woo” side will either be a major side interest or may become one’s primary vocation with everything else secondary.  While it may still not be strong enough to impede functioning, the sensitivity at this stage can make a person more prone to depression and anxiety, and regular spiritual outlets as well as having a good grounding in completely non-religious activities can help to balance this out.
  6. At stage six, you get what I would call shamans or shamanists.  For a moment of controversy: there are two types of genuine shamanists that exist.  One, you do not find outside of indigenous cultures.  If someone is claiming to resurrect Ye Olde Northern/Celtic/(Name European Culture Here) Shamanism based on extremely spotty evidence (like, the worship of beings who are essentially a footnote in the Edda), and they don’t live in Ye Olde Northern/Celtic/Whatever Times, give them a wide berth.  Double ditto for people who want to rip off First Nations folks.  The other, you will find in modern cultures but they will readily admit they are neo-shamans or shamanists, and working in a wholly modern context or trained within older traditions adapted to today, in our age for our times and troubles (two examples of what I would personally deem legitimate shamanists who fall into this latter category are Lupa and Ravenari, although neither of them are Heathen, but still cool people).  That being said, someone who would be classified as a shaman or shamanist will fall into the “on and you can’t turn it off and thus have to use it in service of people” category (or something very close to it), with just as much invested Over There as here in Middle-Earth.  99.98% of people in Heathenry do not fall into category 6.  Some may think they do, but it’s usually either a very confused 5 or a person with serious mental illness and/or ego issues.  (Yes, I went there.)  With regards to the confusion between 5 and 6, some components of seiðr/spae can be shamanic in nature, and priests perform similar functions to shamans within the community, neither of these are shamanism full stop.

I personally rate about a 4.5; I have some characteristics of 5 (I am sworn to Frey, have oathed as His priest, and have communed intensively with Him and my local wights) but in primarily a 4 context (it is not constant, I still have “dry spells”, and on the surface I pass for “normal” quite well, still).  That does NOT mean I am better than a 2, however.  Indeed, I think part of what contributes to the opposition to mysticism in some dominant Heathen circles is that not only do some mystics feel you are either a 5-6 or a “mundane”, there is a sense of superiority (whether expressed overtly or covertly; I’ve seen both) towards those who would fall into categories 2-4.  I think this sucks.  If you get something out of your rituals and fellowship with other Heathens, if you enjoy what life has to offer, then you’re not just “going through the motions” – life is sacred as it is, people don’t need to be talking with the Gods constantly to be blessed by Them.

Anyone from 2-6 on the scale can be said to have had a mystical experience.  And that would be most of us, but it will be by degrees.  Not only do I hope to provide information to those who will be at the 4-5 point and want pointers on how to safely explore and develop what is going on, I’d also like to acknowledge the validity of folks at the 2-3 point and if I may, give some guidance as to how to recognize those proddings and pullings when they come, and to not be afraid to say “Hey, I get this too!”

So, there you have it.  Mysticism is not merely “you have it or you don’t”, but manifests in most religious people, whether that’s quiet or loud.  Both have a place, and it is by acknowledging both types and the various points along the spectrum, that I hope for better understanding on the issue.

Posted for Heathen Mysticism Blogging Month.

~ by svartesol on July 2, 2009.

21 Responses to “Mysticism is a spectrum”

  1. Good post! Definitely agree with the spectrum concept. My only addition would probably be that I think at your “6″ level there are other types that aren’t shamans/shamanists but are at the same level of intensity, dedication, removal from the regular world, etc. Things comparable to, say, a devotional Christian mystic hermit living in a cave somewhere, or a sadhu in India.

    Personally, I think I’m probably at a “5″ and may eventually be heading towards a “6″ though I’m really not sure how I feel about that right now. However, there are still days I don’t feel like a “5″ at all, so who’s to say.

    I do very much agree that it’s not a “better than” situation. Not only is it true that if we were all in the 4-6 range, nothing would get done in this society (if you’re off chasing wights in the forest, you can’t exactly spend all your time raising children or working at a practical mundane job or anything), but I really think our religions NEED the 2-3 folks, the ones who incorporate it into otherwise “mundane” lives, the ones who operate on faith more than direct contact, who experience the gods via Their everyday blessings rather than the mystical fireworks. Those things are crucial to a vital, living religion that can be meaningful to a wide range of people.

    (And honestly, there are times I wonder if those folks are acutally the most devout among us, as they keep up their worship without the benefit of experiencing flashy communication in response.)

    • The main thing with the “6″ is at least in a Heathen context (as I’m blogging specifically on the mystical side of Heathenry; I cannot speak for other traditions), I don’t know of anyone legitimate who would be at a 6 point, and I know some very mystical people. Even in the primary sources the people who were mystics as a full-time job, like the spae-wives and volven, still seemed to be at a 5-5.5. Anyway, I suppose that’s just so much hair-splitting (I’m good at that) and outside of Heathenry, like someone working in a Hellenic context, mileage will vary a bit. ;)

      (And I would agree, you’re probably at a 5 on the scale, possibly a 5.5)

      But I’m glad you pointed this out – our religions do, absolutely, need the 2-3 folks. If we were all full-time mystics the world would stop functioning. And I agree: it is a sign of devotion to be able to maintain faith without expecting or experiencing the big booming voice. I believe in the Gods and other spirits because I have to. My reality is such that I tried to ignore it and deny it and make it go away and it’s still there. It’s easy to believe in something if it’s always around you.

      Thank you for your perspective on this. :)

      -Siggy

  2. While I often personally consider myself a 1 masquerading as a 4, I have a feeling certain P/people might be inclined to strenuously disagree >.>

    • I would be one of those certain people. *pokes you*

      Heh, there are days when I question the reality even as (and I mentioned this above) I tried to ignore it and deny it and make it go away. I still have days when I wonder if I’m crazy or full of shit and then I remember all the things that can’t be explained away by coincidence and the drastic improvements of my life once I acknowledged the reality of what was going on and made arrangements and agreements accordingly.

      I don’t think anyone in Heathenry really falls into category 1, because the nature of religion itself is to believe in something. Most people who would fall into 1 are generally not going to be interested in anything religious. I know enough self-proclaimed “cementheads” who seem to have Something going on occasionally even if it can be really subtle. Thus, the spectrum.

      -Siggy, who thinks you are a 4. There is no masquerade

      • 5 seems to be the goal for me. Whether or not I get there remains to be seen…

        And I agree with you about the drastic improvements. I was talking with Dorian the other day about how my life seems so surreal nowadays in comparison to what it was not even two years ago. I still don’t feel I deserve it sometimes.

        -Nic, who now has Phantom of the Opera stuck in his head.

        • I think a lot of 4s have potential to be 5s, but not everyone gets there. I was at a 4 several years ago and like I said, would consider myself a 4.5 since I have a lot of characteristics of 5 but in a 4 context. I think you have the potential to go further with Stuff, just work at it.

          Heh, I go through the same thoughts too. I think it comes with the territory.

          -Siggy, who is now picturing Count von Count counting numbers (ah, ha ha)

  3. Very good post. I’ve always thought of this as a spectrum somewhere along these lines, even though it often feels that people on both sides (the mystics that like to feel superior, or the “mundanes” that have superiority complexes of their own and view this as a personal threat) don’t seem to recognize this.

    While Heathenry may be different, I do believe I can think of a couple of ones in Hellenic religion. Perhaps the difference there is that Hellenism has such a well developed intellectual side that there is something for those with no connection to deities something to connect to. There is a definite contingent there far more interested in philosophy than they are in the actual devotional aspects of things (not that everyone into philosophy isn’t religious, of course).

    Hmm … I’d probably guess myself hovering somewhere between a four and a five … leaning a lot closer to a four currently, but maybe could be a five if I got my act together and broke down a few of the remaining barriers that get in the way of me reaching my actual potential. *shrug* I’m still new enough to all this crap that I’m not supposed to be worrying over it too much at this current stage. :)

    • Thanks.

      One of the things that I’m hoping to accomplish by this month of blogging on mysticism within Heathenry is to provide dialogue between those who identify as mystics and those who don’t, or at least make it clear that not all mystics think “mundanes” are bad and there are plenty of “mundanes” who are open to things that may not personally happen to them. There is a lot of us v. them polarity depending on which circles you travel and while it has certainly been my experience that some people are skeptics and critical of self-identified mystics for whatever reason, there are people who don’t have it but aren’t freaked out by discussing it or working with such people.

      In Heathenry we do seem to have some folks who tend more towards the scholarly side, and reject mysticism, and some people who are mystical and reject scholarship. I like to think of myself as a scholar-mystic. I don’t have an alphabet soup after my name but I am almost embarrassingly well-read, yet I have grokked enough to understand at some point you have to put the books down and actually practice the religion and live by thew. I think it is possible and preferable to embrace both scholarship and mysticism. We don’t seem to have any Heathen philosophers (we have philosophy, as found in some extant literature, but nothing in Heathenry that would be comparable to Plato or Socrates). Although there does seem to be an opposite problem where I’ve seen some Heathens who very much play into the stereotype of redneck or hesher. It’s not everyone and it isn’t even everyone who lives in the country or likes metal, but it’s enough that I’ve seen it and think we as a folk religion could do better.

      And I agree with you: don’t worry too much about it right now. Ultimately, you are where you are in your spiritual progress. I have tried too hard in the past to force myself into concepts of what my religious practice “should” look like, whether my own concepts or that of others. And while you can change some things and it is admirable to want to improve, with other things you are what you are and have to work with what you’ve got ;)

      -Siggy

  4. Good thoughts.

    I thought I’m a 4.5 on the scale, even before you said you were.

    I’m pretty much having a “normal” life, but increasingly… there seem to be periods where I get such a “signal” that I will pretty much not be able to continue normal, everyday life. I had such a period earlier this year, which lasted a couple weeks, during which I pretty much got the idea that I should do certain things, learn certain things, etc. and where I also encountered the “total bliss” state for the first time.

    Following that, there was a lot of other work (I’m in a team of weirdos working most of their spare time on a programming/artistic project). And I seemed to get a little of a dry spell, too. I cannot always do all of the stuff I feel I should do, because of personal issues. Which doesn’t help the whole thing :-/

    To the point where it worried me a little, not least because I knew I should do a certain something which I’ve been putting off… and my head was not really free… and I’m not 100% sure how to do it. And ironically, it requires a full “connection”, … naturally.

    I’ve reconnected, though, which seems to be relatively easy. (ah well, I get the feeling I messed up a couple times already…)

    I’m still big time in the learning process, and there’s a vast amount of insecurity about where to go with this. I’ve gotten some *very* harsh reactions from Asatru people already because I am Hel’s, and have been pretty open about it, and have also been pretty open about my interest in what other Hel-folk do in their spare time (uh-oh). Some of the reactions were very friendly, and nonchalantly, perhaps even well-meaningly, full of hurt. :-/ Some discussions were very definitely going not so well, to the point of me regretting to ever talk about it.

    I don’t know if some people realize how much oomph their nonchalant comments can develop on impact. And then I’m often not willing to just take it, and then I act up just a little, and then it gets worse.

    I have also seen some *very* harsh things on the net. Hair-raising things (coming from several “camps”). I feel a little like one sort of people is dragging on my one arm, but I don’t really feel like joining them, and another sort of people is preparing to throw stones from the other direction while I kinda want to be their friend. I’m pretty unhappy about all of this.

    I guess if it was one of the Aesir, everything would be a little easier and people would kinda be nicer and more responsive.

    Sometimes I think…

    … so what, if they want it like this… I can become fucking dark I guess. I could become frighteningly dark. I feel it.

    I don’t really want to .. have “sides” though… in my naivity, and my momentary enthusiasm, I wanted “us all to get along”… which definitely wasn’t met with excitement.

    Sides are forming already, sadly. Lines are being drawn. Occasional stones are thrown. In an “Oops” kind of way. No matter what my little self does or wants. :-/

    If I join one sort of people, I’ll always feel sympathy and regret for the other.

    I guess that’s just how it’s going to be, then.

    I guess it’s dawning on me.

    It’s not even a new situation for me, now that I think about it… it has made me feel bad before.

    Maybe I’m not doing so bad at this… apart from the obvious mistake of expecting to learn nice things and feeling good doing it. :-/

    • I’ve gotten some *very* harsh reactions from Asatru people already because I am Hel’s, and have been pretty open about it, and have also been pretty open about my interest in what other Hel-folk do in their spare time (uh-oh). Some of the reactions were very friendly, and nonchalantly, perhaps even well-meaningly, full of hurt. :-/ Some discussions were very definitely going not so well, to the point of me regretting to ever talk about it.

      I don’t know if some people realize how much oomph their nonchalant comments can develop on impact. And then I’m often not willing to just take it, and then I act up just a little, and then it gets worse.

      One of the things that I don’t get (although I’ve seen it, so I know what you’re talking about) is a negative attitude towards Hel. I mean, I can definitely see why it would be a problem if it were, say, Fenris, and to a smaller extent I can understand ambivalence and unpleasant feelings towards The L Guy. But Hel holds the dead – people’s ancestors – and death is inevitable for all of us. Even Thorgrim Freysgoði in Gisla Saga would make Hel-shoes for the dead. I don’t know what people’s problem is.

      Of course, I’m the same person who’s gotten crap from Asatruar for deigning to be a female devotee of Frey. Since I don’t have an obviously erect penis too, clearly He has nothing to offer me and I should just go hang out with Freya and Frigga (which I have done, but am not called to Them in that same way).

      A friend of mine made a very astute observation – the Germanic cosmology is based on fire and ice, and so it is a natural tendency for our people to polarize. Folkish and Universalist. Mystics and anti-mystics. People who honor Hel and other beings that the other side opposes. I would like to think of myself as a very moderate person in all categories, and I would like to think most people in Heathenry are also moderates. However, there does seem to be more polarization on the coasts of the US, and it can be hard to think it’s just a vocal minority when it’s also a very influential minority and even people who are otherwise very moderate and balanced can pick up things without realizing.

      And a lot of people talk big on the net. The sad thing is a lot of them also have been desensitized to acting that way IRL. Some of my Heathen drama experiences have been online, but there’s been offline stuff too. I went through my period of feeling extremely angry and blaming. Even though I’m more cooperative now and trying to build community, I am keenly aware that Heathenry in the US has some serious issues to work through. We are still a new religion in terms of the revival of Heathenry only being around less than 40 years, and are currently at a stage where Wiccans were at 20-odd years ago, with a lot of infighting and Witch Wars. (There are seiðr attacks going on amongst Heathens and the fringes based on ideology rather than direct harm done, but you probably already knew this.) We can expect things to get worse before they get better. I had my criticism of both sides of the fault lines and now think it’s better to emphasize the sane middle. Otherwise I get sucked into things that will go against everything I stand for and am supposed to do.

      It’s hard to say “hang in there” and I don’t really know what to say, apart from I wanted to blog about these things to put it out there and hopefully some folks can realize they, too, meet in the middle, and can start talking about that and making the vocal and influential minority less relevant.

      (And hey, there’s nothing wrong with wanting to learn nice things and feeling good doing it.)

      -Siggy

      • Two things… (well, two and a half)

        One:

        Snorri is big in Asatru, and Snorri is people’s most accessible source about Hel, the person (let’s not mention web pages, which are mostly somewhat Snorri-based). The Snorri description has several layers, but only one of them will immediately appear to people. She’s lumped in with some beings that make most people go *ewww*. I don’t have the full truth about all that, but that’s not the point. It’s what people see.

        One-and-a-half:

        There is a movement, or an idea in German Asatru, that Snorri is not really “local” (German…?…) enough, just like the Sagas etc, and thus doesn’t really apply to “German Heathenry”. Besides, he was totally a Christian and invented it all. (…) Of course all his stuff is also totally referring to Iceland only… you see, it’s not German enough. It’s not authentic enough. It’s not Grandma-type stuff. It is “a late addition”, and thus Hel is “a late addition”, too. If at all!

        Result: What Snorri says, is moot, for German purposes, among it the whole notion of Hel as a person. Can you imagine where this leaves me in some people’s eyes? Exactly, I must be hallucinating O_o

        I’m pretty sure there is an unfortunate agenda behind this “local” idea. In parts, at least.

        Those seem to be the main possibilities to most. I’m (Hel is) much too close to the Bad Guys (too close for comfort, perhaps even family) or I’m simply hallucinating or just not very bright, or a noob because I (seemingly) take Snorri (too) seriously. See, I must have an identity crisis. I’m almost starting to believe that I indeed have one…

        Two and a half:

        I’m not sure about Hel’s family status, and as such… as you probably know, a girl/daughter of the “L guy” is already mentioned in Ynglingatal, not just in Snorra Edda. Plus there is some PG from several people concerning this. Anyway, it creates a dilemma. It is about loyalty possibly being due. *sigh* If paid, it makes it look like the “bad guys” theory is right…

        Like visiting your brother, who’s a Neo-Nazi, in jail, or having tea with your mother, who’s a .. (insert something negative here), will taint yourself, too. It’s a sort of Kontaktschuld (guilty by contact).

        All because you wanted to see your (problematic) family… which is basically natural, of course… (if you haven’t been severely abused, at least, which I think we can assume in this case)

        That’s what I meant about regret. If it came to it, I could not, as it stands now, somehow renounce the rest of the family. Not even the big hairy dude :-/

        Because I, too, am pretty big about loyalty. It’s a conundrum. Because it makes me/us look like “one of them”.

        Thus, if I join an Asatru organisation (not unlikely, if they want me), and there again occurs one of these… situations… between people… or there are again these comments and sentiments… it touches upon loyalty. I would probably, at the least, feel compelled to say something. Which is often enough.

        By possibly paying attention or hommage to my Goddess’ kith and kin, am I condoning (is she condoning) … evil stuff?

        How much, or which form of, giving hommage or loyalty … to the family… the… people that everybody dislikes… is acceptable?

        Sigh. Epic sigh.

        • *sighs with you*

          Question, because I don’t know, are you in Germany? (I don’t want to assume. I know the politics of American Asatru pretty well, but can’t speak for the way it is overseas.) …While I do refer to Snorri, that’s mainly to fill in the gaps of the Germanic authors, like Saxo. I’m Anglo-Saxon Heathen so it’s considered bad form for ASHes to rely on Snorri primarily, but a lot of us will refer to him where the AS and Germanic lore comes up short. :P

          I think as far as judging Hel where Her family (as recorded by Snorri; I do have to say, though, my UPG and others says She is not one of Loki’s kin but we will never really know for sure) is concerned, it’s kind of like judging someone like me by my family. There’s a lot of alcoholics and drug addicts in my family. I’m not. I’m not a teetotaller, either, but I consume alcohol only very, very occasionally, in moderation, for religious usage only. Even if Hel is one of Loki’s kin, that doesn’t mean She is monstrous like Fenris and Jormundgand. Hel serves a purpose in the cosmic order other than destruction.

          Ultimately I think the problem is even beyond the immediate relation to Loki’s kin as presented by Snorri, a lot of people are terrified of death. They may say they don’t fear death, but a lot of Heathens will take very machismo attitudes and talk about dying for the glory of Valhalla. Which obviously most of us are not going to. A straw death may not be very sexy but it’s what is going to happen to most of us. Even if Hel is a late addition it’s clear people have met Her and She is around, and there are worse places to go upon death. I personally don’t speculate on the afterlife too much because I have enough to deal with in this life, but I know a lot of people are afraid of a straw death and the great equalising factor that is Hel housing rich and poor, famed and unknown, great and small, with the same courtesy given to all even if they were maltreated in life. Hel is very final, even as I know Her to also be a healer and a restorer of balance. She is not a Deity people want to touch with a nine-foot pole if they fear death or pretend to not fear death, whether literally or symbolically ;)

          I understand the conundrum you face. In the interests of disclosure, so you get no illusions about me, I don’t support the worship of Fenris, like giving him fainings. That being said, I also don’t support heresy hunting on matters of theology alone. I can understand why Heathens get worked up over that issue but I think there are more immediately harmful things being presented in Heathenry and on its fringes, and what someone does in their rooftree is not my business unless they make it my business by hurting themselves or someone else. I can’t tell you what to do, and I come to this from a place of seeing both sides of that particular issue.

          The situation in the United States is such that even after having cut ties with a certain group for reasons mostly (but not completely) unrelated to this issue, I am still carrying the weight of that association and seen as nithing by people who don’t know me, have never met me, and have never interacted with me or even bothered to read more than two seconds of my writing. I have seen people be raked over the coals for far less and it’s made me very wary of getting involved with any groups or organizations, yet there are, now, some smaller groups out there which are doing good work, such as the Geferræden Fyrnsidu of which I am a proud member. It took me nine years of Heathen practice to find someplace where I’m not just politely tolerated but can participate and contribute. Of course, there’s not the complication of being fulltrui to Hel, and I imagine if She had chosen to have that relationship with me, I would be even more gunshy of any organized Heathen involvement. Some people can be really nasty and for all the wrong reasons.

          I do wish you good luck with finding community, somewhere. It’s tough even for those of us who don’t belong to Deities that raise major controversy when named. It can be very easy to just say “oh fuck it” and get burned out; I’ve been there. I am trying to make things better for weird people like myself. I think things will eventually get better. But it will take time, and people listening rather than having hair-trigger reactions, including and especially when beings like Hel are brought up.

          -Siggy

  5. This puts it all nicely in perspective. Well done.

    For the record, I’d rate myself a 2-3 on the Siggy Scale. I got into Heathenry both out of intellectual interest and because I was being prodded by a god (though I didn’t fully realize it at the time).

    I can’t believe you’re all referring to Loki as “The L Guy”. He’s not going to crash your computer if you speak his name. Sheesh.

    • Actually I normally don’t refer to Voldemort Loki as The L Guy. I personally give him a wide berth these days since we have, uh, a history (long, complicated story), but I don’t have the hysteria some Heathens do on the subject. I have a few Lokean friends (“some of my best friends are Lokeans!”) and think there are other things to freak out over. My brain was a bit tired last night and I hear some people refer to him as The L Guy, so I think I slipped into that mode.

      Hehehe, the Siggy Scale. I like it. And yeah – most people are going to be a 2-3 on the scale. That’s OK. Intellectual interest is a good thing.

      -Siggy

  6. Thanks for reading, and I’m kinda sorry to have dumped my problems on you, I’ll try not to in the future :)

    Yes, I am in northern Germany, in Jutland actually. The Heathen / Pagan map of Germany is somewhat complicated. People like to identify as “Alemannic” or “Frankish” and a host of other things, and like to use different names for Deities the further south you get. There is a definite “nazi problem”, both in hard and soft variants, the latter of which is easily mistaken. There is not so much in the way of reasonably open minded and agenda-less Heathen options. There is basically Asatru in a couple tastes, which is often relatively tolerant. Relatively being the key word. And then there are loose, colorful, partly fluffy networks of “Pagans” whatever that means. :)

    Anyway. We’ll see how that goes.

    Faining Fenrir: I don’t do that, I gave him a nod once in the greater context of getting pretty close to Hel (a sacrifice for Hel). Like you say, we’ll never know for sure :-/

    My current idea is that the Rokkr thing may just be one of several possible angles to approach Hel. I’m not sure she’s so simple (she’s definitely not as simple as both ends of the “spectrum” seem to think she is), and people in several places and times may have had different ways to approach her. So to put it bluntly, she may both be a child of Loki’s and at the same time… she may not. I don’t buy into the Great Goddess stuff (I’m Heathen), but that’s what I think atm. The “angles” or “entrances” or “layers” theory. It goes without saying that if you hit upon a certain angle, you may perhaps easily forget about others (or not even know of their existence, like the healing and loving one). It’s not like Hel seems to be dependant of anyone, she’s rather her own person… however, family is not unimportant in Heathenry, either (that’s the epic sigh part).

    A limit to PG? … not enough sources? PG influenced by sources?

    Fenrir and co. have no permanent installation in my home, so to say. Not even up under the roof tree :) Apart from Hel, my next closest are actually Freyja and Freyr O_o which is another reason I keep a tab on your blog. For a while, the Vanadis seemed a little interested in me (a rather amazing goddess, indeed). Then it seemed like the two goddesses … made some sort of deal or agreement. :) I don’t think Freyja is too upset… the two seem to get along. I do fainings to the Vanir. Sometimes. I have little connections. Sometimes. Good ones. Everytime I have such a Freyr/Freyja connection, they just seem to smile and be .. somehow amused at me. :)

    About Snorri, well… I do definitely follow the Norse variety, my family is partly Danish, and it feels like the natural thing to do (always has, in line with the local background, both my parents were soft Atheists and some god names were known early, and there was no Christian stuff whatsoever but a rampant fandom of the North). Also, there is that damn lack of non-PG sources. If I point something out, someone can just do a dropkick on Snorri, and blammo, there goes most of my source material. An important part of it, at least. Yes, there is Saxo’s death goddess (Proserpina? hehe) and Ynglingatal, and a couple sources that are pretty definitely Christian looking. There may be a bracteate, but that’s not sure. Snorri isn’t everything. But… ouch. I’m easy to counter on the Lore front :-(

    I guess it’ll be interesting to see what happens next.

    And now I have to mow the lawn. :-)

    • *nods* I think there are several frames of reference for Hel and She is more complicated than many realize. I think She is more likely a very old Goddess than a late invention but is not the Great Goddess (TM), and it’s possible for Gods to exist in multiple frames of reference which is why some people get different faces of Woden and some people can contact/work with Baldur and some can’t ;) It gets complex for my human brain to figure out, and is a reminder the Gods are like us but don’t have our human limitations.

      I would agree that Freya and Hela seem to have an OK relationship. My personal gnosis (some agree, some may not) is that Frey gets sacrificed once a year and goes to Hel, and has an exceptionally positive business relationship with Her. Generally speaking, Frey and Freya tend to share likes and dislikes of people including People-with-a-big-P (although not always).

      And yeah, I try not to rely primarily on Snorri because I’m ASH but periodically I do have to check in with the Eddas and the Sagas just because of sheer lack of mythology and personal history material outside of Snorri.

      I asked about you being in Germany because I have an unfortunate tendency to assume most of my readers are American. I do have a fair amount of readers in Australia, the UK, and Canada, but I shouldn’t just assume someone who comments to me in English = American. I know there are Asatru groups in Germany, but I don’t know much about the politics of said groups (if there’s a group, there’s politics) and how a woo-person will fit in.

      I am glad you follow my blog by the way, I hope that what I post here is helpful. I should post more on the Vanir specifically, and probably will do that starting next month ;)

      -Siggy

      • Yes, this frames of reference thing makes more and more sense to me lately. It might be a good way to explain a couple things (the Odin/Woden/etc. thing, too).

        Maybe the whole Loki part was just a new frame of reference for a certain time and place. That doesn’t make it “wrong”, of course. Like I think originating from a syncretistic time (we’re talking several hundred years) doesn’t necessarily “taint” Heathen sources or deities in such a way to make them “unusable”. It’s something to know and be aware of, of course. But I don’t think Heathens between 800 and 1200 (Saxo…) were “worse heathens”.

        Deities can probably be many things to many people. Depending on need… and point of view. But if someone kills a guy and maintains that Odin told him so… I doubt you can blame Odin. Not necessarily or not in principle at least. It’s rather “the guy *plus* his understanding of Odin”.

        I have to thank you for writing, you’re pretty good at this.

  7. Good post! Like most extremes, people at both ends of the spectrum are rare, with most of us falling at some point along the continuum. Personally, I consider myself more or less a 5.5 on the “Siggy scale;” that is, I function as a solid 5 most of the time, though there have been indications I may be ultimately headed towards 6 and I do have my 6 days. I consider a full-fledged 6–full-time shaman or shamanist–to be a state that requires the ongoing support of a community to at least some extent and would be difficult or impossible to maintain while also holding down a job in the mundane world (which, face it, is something most of us do have to deal with). At the same time, we need to remember that in some indigenous cultures the shaman (or shamanist) is not a full-time practitioner, but also functions as a working member of the “mundane” community; this is closer to the role most mystics in the 5-6 range would realistically find ourselves in.

    • -nods- I think you’ve got it, there.

      Very few people in the modern day who profess to be shamanists understand that not all shamans are full-time practitioners and if they are it involves having some type of reciprocal support. Most of us don’t make enough money/goods/barter of services from services rendered that we can be old-style shamans and do it full-time to the exclusion of everything else. The Gods may take care of Their own, but there’s something to be said about not being stupid and expecting Them to take care of every last detail. There are people I’ve known who I consider to be genuine shamanists or heading down the path to a 6, who get this. However, all too often when shamanism is discussed in a Heathen context, it either turns into New Agey Harner-style stuff (and seiðr, as we both know, has shamanistic elements but is not shamanism full stop) or it turns into “you must experience a period of intense suffering and then your life is just going to suck because the Gods pwn you”. I do think there are less people in category 6 in actuality than who claim to be within Heathenry/”Northern Tradition”, who turn out to be either really confused 5s or don’t just have issues but a subscription and think shamanism justifies (this is going to sound bitchy, but it needs to be said) failing at life. That does not mean nobody ever becomes a 6 and nobody ever becomes a 6 in Heathenry, but as you put it people at both ends of the spectrum are rare, and I would think that 6 is rarer in actuality than is presented.

      The information that we have and can piece together does not make a strong case for practicing shamanists during the early to late conversion era. It does seem that there were shamanistic elements of religion from the Neolithic period on upward, evidenced by grave goods and other findings. But it’s hard to piece together a tradition from very spotty evidence, and that lends itself easily to abuse from the vapid and the rabid. Nonetheless, some people do seem to be heading down the road to a full-blown shamanistic experience, whether they call themselves shamans, priests, or what have you. (As not everyone who falls into category 6 is going to fit the label of shaman; as has been pointed out 6 would also apply to things like Hindu holy men and Christian hermits. The closest example of 6 I’ve seen in the primary sources regarding an historical person is the account of Veleda.) I would agree with your assessment that you’re at around a 5.5. You may be headed towards a 6. It will be interesting to find out.

      And the spectrum does vary day to day, week to week. I have my 5.5 days, on average I’m a 4.5 in terms of combined contact and how it influences my life, but sometimes the “woo” is more intense and sometimes it’s not. Sometimes the Gods have ways of delivering not-very-subtle clue-by-fours and I feel like I’m in a Neil Gaiman novel for real. ;)

      -Siggy

  8. A fair scale. This is timely for me as members of our Hof and participants in our rune-turned-lore group were having a discussion about “folkish” vs. “universalist” fence sides in heathenry after watching the documentary “THE FOLK.” While our hof is comprised of some eclectics and “dual trad” heathens, when we participate in hof functions we honor the Germanic gods. Period. I’d be interested to submit this scale for their consideration and see where everyone falls on it, but I don’t think it really matters in the end, because as a group I hope we respect each other more than that. As you know, we sponsor a seidr/spae group, to which many hof members also belong.

    In any case, I tend to agree with you about there not being many 1’s in Heathenry, though I feel there are at least a few 2’s who swear they are 1’s and end up grumbly when the subject of “woo” or magic is even breathed. There have been a lot of “can’t we all just get along” type sentiments in this comment thread, and I feel that the more we discuss open-mindedly, the better.

    Thanks for opening the round table!

    Borea

    • You’re welcome.

      And yeah, if your group sponsors a seidr/spae group then you probably don’t need to bring up the scale. It says that people in the group at least respect mysticism even if some don’t engage in it.

      I feel there are at least a few 2’s who swear they are 1’s and end up grumbly when the subject of “woo” or magic is even breathed.

      Yes. *nods* I don’t think there are many genuine 1’s in Heathenry since 1’s tend to be uber-skeptical and often are atheists and agnostics (of course there are some atheists who identify as Heathen but that’s not a subject I want to touch right now, lol), but there are a number of 2’s who think they are 1’s and can’t deal with any magic/mystical talk. I do note that there are some people who are not magic users or having regular “woo” experiences who are at least open to discussion on the subject, and I think it’s important to acknowledge and appreciate them. A lot of these discussions turn into us v. them, and while I have had in the past some extremely bad reactions to any mention of mystical anything, I don’t want all “woo-lite” or “mostly-not-woo” folks painted with a broad brush. I think open-minded discussion is the way to start correcting some of the imbalance in modern Heathenry. :)

      -Siggy

Comments are closed.